Answering Islam Email Dialogs
Topic: The authenticity of the Bible
Note: The following are five long rounds of discussion between the Muslim and some members of the team of Answering Islam correspondents stretching over roughly two weeks. The main topic covered is the alleged corruption of the Bible, though a number of other issues are also touched upon. No editing has been done except to shorten it in a few places.
Received: 14 November 2004
Subject: Give it up. UR losing to us.
I perused your pathetic little attempt to discredit the Religion of God and his Great Prophet. Truly sad. i am not an apologist. Yes, the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) committed acts of violence. i have no problems with this. We are muslims, not passivists. Sometimes in life you have to fight. you dont have to stand tall, but you do have to stand up.I do not rectify the violence of terrorists, nor do i rectify the acts of violence made by 2000 years of Christian tyranny and violence. Its destruction of polytheist cultures, its 1000 years of genocidal mission toward jews, and its persecution of free thinkers such as Galileo, Bruno, and Capurnicus.The Eurpoean and American Witch trials, and the "Christian terrorism" of the Irish, the KKK (a Whitye Anglo-Saxon CHRISTIAN terrorist organzation). We should ask the nomadic Avars how much they love the religion of the "Prince of Peace"....oh wait, we cant. They were completely wiped out in a genocidal effort by Charlemagne because they refused to convert to the Paulian Blood Cult you laughingly call "The Way".
Christianity has been the scourge of this planet. It has caused more pain, torture, and death than any other fanatical movement ever invented.So take a look in the mirror the next time you start to criticise us.
Islam DOES condone violence under the right conditions.If you threaten our community, our faith, or our home and way of life, then we are ORDERED by God to defend what is ours.We do not turn the other cheek, we kick your ass--and all in the name of God. But Islam gives us very stiff guidelines; rules of engagement if you will.You may not kill a non-combatant, a woman, child, or elderly person. You may not destroy trees, buildings,or burn fields. And under no circumstance are you to kill a muslim. This is all in black and white and not up to "interpretation".Anyone who violates them is going to Hellfire and in violation of Islam.
Your evaluation is correct.We muslims do not play PC games.God gave us laws and rules, just like the jews and we follow them no matter what a group of "enlightenment" philosophers think.That is man-made, not divine law.In Islam to blaspheme the Prophet Muhammad(or any prophet) is to be put to death. Period, As it should be.Unfortunately, we cannot do this in America, or you people would get the just reward you have coming through your Internet efforts. But we still amnage to teach you some respect and manners on occassion.The last man who blasphemed the Holy Prophet to my face swallowed both his front teeth about three seconds later.I took great pleasure in the fact that the next time he spoke blsphemy,it would be with a lisp.
Pagans are to convert or die.Period. As it should be. People such as wiccans,New Agers,and Hindus are parasites to gods planet. Either they should change their ways or accept their just punishment.Christians and jews are People of the Book,and should be tolerated and even protected. But they are misguided, and should be taxed in our countries for having to put up with them.If they speak out against Islam in our countries, they should be punished. Homosexuals. In this country of my birth they are shamefully allowed to parade up and down the streets in front of our children. Some states even try to allow them to marry. The sentence for homosexuality in Islam is death.As it should be. Calipha Omar ibn Kattaub(ra) used to have them thrown off the top of minarets.Do that in San Francisco with 25% of their popuilation off some of those sky scrapers and this nation will drastically improve.Thieves should have their hands cut off and murderers their heads, as it used to be in our country, when we hung and shot horsethieves and killers. Not lock them up and feed them at our expense for the rest of their lives.Run this country with those frontier laws and crime will diminish.
And perhaps someday soon it will. You see, silly Paulian zealots, your religion is about to be outnumbered. By 2025 we will be the majority religion in the world.We have doubled our number in the last 20 years, and in America we now outnumber the jews.Where one mosques wre only found in a few cities just ten years ago, now they are popping up in almost all towns and suburbs. The call to Prayer can be heard over loudspeakers in most large cities now, where in 1980 it would have been unheard of. We are the fastest growing religion in the world, with 20,000 converts in this country a year. 8 out of ten are women, who will marry muslim men, and have muslim children, thus elevating our numbers in this country double or triple in the next 20 years.Islam, whether you like it or not, is the future of this planet, and a future fast approaching.May Allah be praised!
This was inevitable.Christianity is a false religion that idolizes Jesus as a Herculean God in some bizzare and morbid blood sacrifice that has pagan overtones.It comes not from Jesus or God but from a false prophet named Paul who violated the Law of Moses and made a man equal to God.Your Bible is a corrupted text that has been rewritten, added to, and re-edited from the very beginning to match your sick beliefs. This is blasphemy and all who believe it are doomed to hellfire. It has taken us 1425 years to start to over come this blood cults stranglehold on mankind, but at last we near making it a minority opinion.God is finally having his true way prevail.
So you dont like us? You want us "controlled in America" you say? Too bad. We have fredom of religion in this country, and are protected by the 2nd Amendment and the Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Fire us, we sue. persecute us, we get sympathy and thus more converts. Burn down our mosques, we build a new one with the sympathetic donation (often from church groups) and the guilty go to prison.And all the time, we get larger, richer,and become more of an influence in this country.
We are your police, your grocers, your secretaries, doctors, lawyers, school teachers, and neighbors. Your children go to school with our children. Omar and Muhammad are now almost as common in a school roster as Brendan and Michael.
We are here. We are getting larger by the minute. We are taking over this planet. And theres NOTHING you can do about it.
S go ahead and whine, i will enjoy watching your pathetic tantrums as we rule your future.
Or join us. Accept islam for your salvation.Because your children and/or grandchildren probably will.
Peace Be With You,
Answering-Islam's response #1 (from 4 different Christians)
Thanks for your email. As the coordinator for the www.answering-islam.org 's email response team, I receive emails sent to our website and then forward them to followers of Christ who have volunteered to respond to emails from folks like yourself. I found your email especially interesting, so forwarded it to several correspondents to answer. FYI, all 4 of these have joined our email team in the past month or so. Sorry that our response is so long... but consider yourself blessed... you are the first person to whom we have sent 4 responses from 4 different volunteers. :-) I hope you find them helpful.
Feel free to send any comments or questions to me, and, if you like, I can forward them to any one or all of the 4 people below.
I admit it. Those who have pursued the religion of Christianity over the years have failed many times. The Scriptures tell us, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). Many things done in the name of Christianity was wrong. But I contend that a true Christian will not be known by the name he calls himself, but by his relationship to Jesus and by his works or "fruit." In the Injil, Jesus said, "No good tree bears bad fruit, nor does a bad tree bear good fruit. Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in his heart, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in his heart. For out of the overflow of his heart his mouth speaks. (Luke 6:43-45) Just because someone does an act in the name of Christianity, you cannot assume he knows the One (Jesus-Christ) who was promised throughout the Torah and the Psalms. Jesus himself said, Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' (Matthew 7:22-23)
God, throughout the Holy Scriptures, has not called man to judgment or violence but to peace.
"If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written:
"It is mine to
avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."
"Be merciful to those who doubt (Jude 22)" is commanded. I must urge you to really seek the TRUTH with all your heart. God has promised: "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).
I will be praying for you, Ali, by name, every day for six weeks starting today. Every day, I will call out to God that He would show you the plans He has for you. Every day I will pray to the Lord, that He would show you the way to SALVATION. As the Scripture says, "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.(2 Peter 3:9).
Don't be fooled and just go along with the "crowd". The Lord Jesus himself proclaimed, Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it. (Matthew 7:13,14). Only a few will find it - I know I have found it and I will be praying that you will as well.
In the PEACE that surpasses all understanding,
You letter reflects a great deal of thought but also rage. You raise many questions which people have written volumes to carefully explain. I will not address your listing of the sins of "Christians" in the past history. We could easily simply exchange such accusations for the next ten e-mails of the various mindless, savage atrocities committed BOTH in the name of both Christ and for the sake of Allah. People have used all the great monotheistic religions to cover for violence targeting the innocent. We Christians, Jews, and Muslims could easily sit in a room and point fingers at each other all day citing examples of people who use their religion as an excuse for mindless violence against innocent, peaceful people. If you feel that Islam, being the true religion, is untouched by such perversion, the you have to look no farther than the recent murder of the Iraqi aid worker by those who call themselves Muslims fighting in the cause of Allah. If you cry out that such men cannot be true Muslims because they murdered a defenseless woman who devoted her life to humanitarian aid, then I would also clarify that those who called themselves "Christians" and participtaed in Crusades killing innocents were NOT following the example of Christ.
The question to ask ourselves is, when Christians and/or Muslims commit such acts violence and genocide, which group is acting according to the teaching of their scriptures and which group is acting in disobedience to their scriptures?
First of all I want to thank you for perhaps the most honest and perceptive letter that I have read from an American Muslim in quite some time. Of course as always there is so much that could be said. Obviously we disagree on quite a few issues. On other issues however, we are actually in full agreement. But for the sake of brevity let me just respond to a few of the comments that you made. Based on what you have written I will assume that you would appreciate that I am as forthright as you were in your letter.
If you don't mind, let me begin by asking you to first re-read your own letter and truly ask yourself whether or not your threats sounds like the words of a man who is serving and walking with the One True God or is instead living according to his own carnal/earthy anger and insecurities. You can probably guess what my feelings are. And I don't mean this as an insult. I am genuinely asking you to ponder this a bit. Are your threats and your general attitude the fruit of your experience of submitting yourself to the influence of Islam? Really? What motivated you to write this letter? Was it a desire to see us here also come to Islam because of your deep concern for us? Do you deeply care and wish that we might be spared the torments of hell? Or was your letter motivated by the same spirit that motivated you to punch out someone's teeth and then take pleasure in such? As a genuine friend, I am asking you to honestly pray and think about these things. To what spirit have you opened your soul?
Okay some theological thoughts. While perhaps not all Christians will agree with me, I agree with you that Islam may eventually come close to taking over the world. But it will be only temporarily. I personally believe that the Bible seems to predict the kind of things that you have spoken of and warns those of us who know our God regarding such:
Daniel the Prophet said this with reference to the Last days:
As I watched, this horn (The Mahdi - The Islamic Messiah Figure?) was waging war against the saints and defeating them, until the Ancient of Days came and pronounced judgment in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came when they possessed the kingdom. "He gave me this explanation: 'The fourth beast (The coming Islamic dominance of which you spoke?) is a fourth kingdom that will appear on earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth, trampling it down and crushing it. The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom. After them another king (The Mahdi) will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings. He will speak against the Most High (Yahweh) and oppress his saints and try to change the set times (Hijra Calendar) and the laws (Shari'ah). The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time (Three and a half years). " 'But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever. Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.' (Daniel 7:21-27)
Jesus said it this way:
In fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think that in doing so, he is offering a service to God.
You see Ali, we as Christians serve and follow the one who also appeared to be defeated (at the cross). But in reality he was actually gaining the greatest victory. Through being overcome, he was actually overcoming. And likewise we his followers will also overcome through being overcome. And as such the angel said to Daniel that we will inherit the Kingdom forever. The Apostle John says that we the saints and the true followers of God will overcome Satan, death and the world by three means:
"They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (Jesus) and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death." (Revelation 12:11)
On the other hand, those who serve the temporarily conquering King will go to destruction and shame forver.
If you and I live long enough, the day may come when someone who Muslims refer to as Isa Al-Maseeh will come and as your traditions say will break the cross, kill the pig and abolish the Jizyah tax. Shafi fiqh (Reliance of the Traveler) as well as several Muslim authors that I have read have said that the reason for the abolishing of the Jizyah tax will be because at that time, protection will no longer be an option for the ahul al-Kitab. Rather people of the book will have the option of accepting Islam or being executed.
So, perhaps the day will come when the choice will be yours to either join the temporarily "victorious" Muslims who are slaughtering Christians and Jews and as you said, "parasites" all over the world, or you can become one of us and choose to die to yourself, die to your anger and become a follower of Jesus - the way, the truth and the life. If you choose the latter, I promise you that you will never be sorry. I pray that your spirit will have the courage to see and choose the right path - the path that leads to eternal life.
I leave you with one final exhortation from your friend the apostle Paul ;)
"But now you must rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. Therefore, as God's chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity." (Colossians 3:8-14)
I hope this little exchange can be a blessing for you. For now I say:
May the Lord bless you and keep you (very far from me)! ;)
Jazakallah Khair. Bless You Ali.
Thank you for taking the time to write us and present your views. We do appreciate hearing from you.
I think the first thing that hit me when I read through your letter, is your understanding of what it means to be a "Christian." I do believe that what you perceive as "a Christian" is the way many people today think.
But if that were the correct definition of a true Christian, I would be against it as you are!
I do not condone the majority of what "Christians" do these days-or have done. There are many different beliefs and understandings under that name. As a true Christian, I accept the Bible literally and believe its message about the greatness of God as emphasized in his plan of redemption for mankind. The Bible is a big book, and there are many topics found therein. Many people attempt to combine these topics in a way that makes sense to them, but end up with a distorted view of what it says. This, sadly, is the case with many "Christians" out there. Their understanding of the Scriptures the Prophets is distorted. This, however, does not discredit the Bible- it only discredits those who don't take to time to understand the Scriptures properly.
I don't have any illusions in regards to the strength and growth of Islam over the past years. But let me say this: just because something is flourishing... does not make it right. You can't create ethics from majority rule. You yourself used homosexuality as an illustration of how bad things are getting. But 40 years ago, this was almost unheard of in our country as well. So, based on the growth of homosexuality, does that mean they are doing the right thing? Not at all!
Seems to me that when a lot of people go one way, it only means that it appeals to mankind as a whole.
It is interesting that the Prophet Jeremiah stated:
Jeremiah 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; Who can understand it?" If that is the condition of our hearts, does that not mean that our hearts will tend naturally to pull is away from the Truth. In that state, we would not even be comfortable with the Truth!
In fact, the Bible does state the following:
Matthew 7:12-20 "In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
13 Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
14 For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.
15 "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits.
Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 "So then, you will know them by their fruits."
It also catches my attention to hear you say that the Bible has been re-written and changed, thus trying to discredit its message. To me, this is an indication that you have not read up on the subject. The Book throughout all history that has the greatest testimony of being true to the original text is the Bible. This has been documented in many places, one of the most recent and greatest being with the Dead Sea Scrolls. Our goal is to help people understand the Message of the Prophets in an objective way. Our job is not to coerce people to believe the truth, but to help them to understand it so they can make an informed decision about its message. If you reject Christianity based on the understanding of what you wrote below, please let us help you understand clearly the Message of the Scriptures before you reject it all together. Below my name you will find a couple of online resources that clearly explain God's Message.
Again, thank you,
John for www.answering-islam.org
ALI'S EMAIL #2
Subject: Re: Give it up. UR losing to us.
(Note from Answering-Islam: What we are calling "Ali's Email #2" was actually 9 long emails totally 40 pages which he emailed us! We will not post them all on this page. Here are a few excerpts from the first and the last of his nine emails.)
I thank you all for your responses. Being as i received several i will simply address the jest of all your messages in one Em.
First, yes, your website made me very angry. Any group that poses as trying to have 'open dialogue" with Muslims and Christians but only uses this to attack Islam and its Holy Prophet makes me naturally furious. All of your lilty and polite E-mails underplays your harshness online. You speak of hate, yet we Muslims never call Jesus a liar, a epileptic, or an insane person. But this is the disrespectful tactic of your organization and most Christians in general in respect to the Prophet Muhammad (PBH). You all argue that i do not know "real Christians" well, i could really care less. Ive studied Christianity, its theology and philosophy. Its crap from the beginning. You have a very pessismistic view of mankind. You see man as a naturally bad entity "doomed to the curse of sin" from the original sin of Adam. This is ridiculous. Islam teaches us that Allah made us of equal potential to do good or evil through free will. Thats why we have it. To choose Allah or reject him. If he wanted us to be purely devotional beings knowing nothing else then he would have made us so. But then its like programmimg a robot to say I love you. Its has no meaning. By giving us a CHOICE, those who choose God over a temporary material life on this planet is showing the greatest devotion.Nothing is more dear to him.
You believe that only through the physical sacrifice of God on a stick can we achieve salvation from sin. This is ridiculous, and blasphemy. It limits God, and makes God man-like. God does not need bizzare sacrifices to forgive man; he need only will it. Nor can God be a Man. Why? Because there is one thing God cannot do; he Cannot NOT be God. What doies this mean? it means God is the ultimate and completely unique in all ways, and would not become less than that.To die, be a man, is beneath the very definition of God. It belies the Glory of God,making him the created, not the creator and thus cannot exist. We are not made in God's image, as God is absolutely unique. That would make man in someway like God, and that would infringe upon the uniqueness of God, and thus cannot exist.
The entire belief of Christianity goes against Gods plan. That plan being this life is nothing but a test of choosing God over the temporary pleasures and lures of this earth. If man is naturally bad and sinful, this tips the scale, and thus makes the test unfair. If you can achieve salvation simply by belief in Christ, then this is a "get out of Jail Free" card and also makes the test useless and unfair. So mans entire purpose of creation is contradicted by your false religion.
Also, the entire doctrine of "If you think of a sin in your head, then you are just as guilty of the sin as if you did it" in your Bible is the MOST STUPID THING IVE EVER HEARD! Sin is action, not thought. If you think it, and overcome it and do not do it, then you have overcome Shaitan's temptation, and will actually be rewarded for it in Paradise.You Christians made this crap up to support the whole "original sin" docrine, because without it, the sacrament of Christ is useless.
.............So therefore, i pay no attention to your Numerous Bible quotes. You might as well be quoting the Bhagavad Gita to me. i didnt even read them.
On my "violence" in the name of God. Do i feel I was serving God when I knocked that idiots teeth out fro blaspheming Gods Prophet? Yes, I do. i felt no different than im sure Prophet Samuel felt when he took a sword and cut Agag to pieces on Gods orders to spare niether him nor his people and livestoack. Or when Prophet Elijah killed the Baal Priests, or Prophet Musa when he ordered the blasphemer stoned to death, or Prophet Joshua when he destroyed the cities of Canaaan on Gods command.So yes, i took great pleasure in enforcing Gods law to the best of my ability.
.............On the assassinated charity worker in Iraq. It is a travesty. All Muslims feel this way, as all Christians im sure feel over the burned Witches of the Christian Inquistion and the lynched blacks by Christian terrorists.The men who did it are in violation of Islam, she was a non-combatant, and they should be put to death for their crime. Yet, this is a problem we brought on ourselves. For two hundred years the Christian west subjected islamic countries to their way of life. They closed moques, made women not wear hijabs, and even belittled their marriages as invalid. Whatever came from the East was "wrong' and the West was "right" colonailism attempted to destroy muslim culture wherever it was found. Now these countries want to persue their own cultrue and ethics, and not those of the West. That is their right as human beings under God.We muslims have the right to be muslims in our own lands. These horrid acts are the acts of downtrodden people acting in two centuries of anger and desperation. Tjhis is not religion, this is politics.Is it right? no. Is it understand able, yes. We of the West made this beast, now its trying to eat us. Thus goes the world of politics.
What angers us is that if a muslim kills someone for politics, its "MUSLIM Terrorist kills..." but i never once read a headline that called Timothy McVeigh, Gordon Kahl,or the KKK as" CHRISTIAN Terrorist kills..." so yes, there is a prejudice and double standard. All out of fear that we are taking over. And as I said, its well founded. This "Islamophobia" is mere growing pains of an eventual majority of the world being muslim.
As i said, like it are not. We are here, getting bigger, and where not going away. Whether you Paulian Blood Cult folks like it or not.
.............Verdict: The Bible is human-produced crap posing as divine word.
Flat facts, Paulian. Once again, PROVE ME WRONG.
How long do i have to await your enlightening defence of your "Divinely inspired Book"?
I wait to be "dazzled" by your revelation and "faith inspired" insight to this conglomerated and falsely glorified mess.
Peace Be Upon You. Accept Islam for your Salvation,
Ps I cannot accept prayers from Christians, nor call you friends, as you pray to a man, not God. And the Quran says not to take jews and Christians as your confidants. You are that to one another. Not God's true people, we the muslims.
ANSWERING-ISLAM'S RESPONSE #2
In the last line of your nine emails received this morning, you ask:
How long do i have to await your enlightening defence of your "Divinely inspired Book"? I wait to be "dazzled" by your revelation and "faith inspired" insight to this conglomerated and falsely glorified mess.
Answer: How long did the religious leaders of Jesus' day have to wait to be "dazzled" by His "revelation and...inspired insight"? (See Mark 8:11-13; Matthew 15:1-14; 16:4; 23:37-39; John 11:40-54...)
Praying for you,
ALI'S EMAIL #3:
Subject: A cop out-A cop out.
I call that a cop out.I wait for nothing from Christ, because he IS NOT GOD.Like I told that Paulian numerous times. I PAY NO ATTENTION TO BIBLE QUOTES. They are meaningless to me.I hold that the Bible was corrupted centuries and even millennia ago, and that most if not all of the NT is complete hogwash created by a false Prophet named Paul. Therefore, to quote the Bible to me is a waste of typing and/or cut and pasting.(This especially applies to any book from Acts to Revelation.For they were written by Paul or his followers, and I know them to by false scripture beyond shadow of doubt. They hold nothing of any spiritual use whatsoever.) Besides, the very topic in question is a challenge to prove me wrong in my provided data that the Bible is corrupted beyond salvaging the original divine message within it.You cannot prove a a text is not corrupted by simply quoting from the text in question. Thats like saying the Hitler Diaries are real because in the third paragraph on page 75 of notebook 4 they say they are real. As Ive said to that pathetic Paulian Ken so many times Im sick of it:Step up or shut up. He couldnt defend his book or his misguided faith. And thus far, im not seeing much from you and your bunch.
You charge a lot of things and proclaim to have the truth. Thus far, ive seen nothing but BS from a bunch of people who worship a dead hippie on a stick as Allah and ritually cannibalize him as a form of sick devotion.Like I said, Im waiting, and Im not impressed with what your presenting me.Make a stand, or stop wasting my time.And while your at it, post an apology to the whole Islamic world on your website. That might be the only way to spare you from the Hellfire you have doomed yourself to for blaspheming and slandering GOds true Religion.
Accept Islam for your Salvation.
ANSWERING-ISLAM'S RESPONSE #3
Greetings. Thanks for your reply even though you didn't answer my question. :-) I didn't design the question to "cop-out", but to encourage you to think outside your box. The people in Jesus' day disliked His claims just as much as you seem to. They picked up real stones to throw at Him whenever He claimed equality with God. Today many people just deny He even made such claims or perhaps say "Astaghferullah!" (since there is no physical Jesus for them to throw stones at).
I must say, you are quite good at throwing proverbial stones at the Bible. Of course, from my standpoint (as one who has been studying the Bible with a passion for 30 years), your stones are all missing the mark. And as one who has been listening for more than two decades to my Muslim friends attack the Bible... you have failed to mention a single argument against this Book of books which I have not already heard, and for which there are satisfying answers.
You have made many claims... such as the increasingly popular idea that the writings of the Apostle Paul are inconsistent with what Jesus taught and did. I've seen the lists of such supposed inconsistencies, so no need to send me those. They only reveal a sad misunderstanding of the Scriptures. Everything Paul wrote is in perfect harmony with what the Old Testament prophets wrote and with what Jesus taught. I am prepared to defend this... but only to those who have a heart to learn. (And only if we are agreed to address ONE supposed "contradiction" at a time).
In this email, I will focus on just one of your issues: that of BIBLICAL CORRUPTION. If I see in you the spirit of one who has a heart to learn... I will be glad to continue this correspondence. I'm not saying you have to accept everything I write... But I am saying that unless we are willing to embrace truth wherever it may lead us... then we might as well not waste each other's time. Agreed?
In light of the dozens of passages in the Qur'an that insist that the Torah, the Zabur and the Injil are from God and that "Those who treat the Book, and the message we have sent through our apostles, as a lie, will know the truth hereafter: when, with chains and collars around their necks, they shall be dragged through scalding water and burned in the fire of hell." (Surah 40:71) I can understand why the concept of biblical corruption is so important to you. For if the Bible is not corrupted then it means that all Muslims everywhere are obligated to believe it. Especially when the Qur'an says things like: "If you are in doubt concerning what we revealed to you, then question those who read the Scripture that was before you." (10:94) "We sent down the Torah in which there is guidance and light." (5:44) "We have revealed to you as we revealed to Noah and the prophets after him, and as we revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the tribes; to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, Solomon and David, to whom we gave the Psalms." (4:163) "We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of the prophets, confirming the Torah which was before him, and we gave him the Gospel with its guidance and light, confirmatory of the preceding Torah; a guidance and warning to those who fear God. Therefore let the people of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein. Evildoers are those that do not judge according to God's revelations." (5:46)
Now then, let me address the topic.
The claim that the Bible Scriptures have been changed, altered, tampered with, etc... is refuted by thousands of ancient manuscripts safeguarded in museums and universities around the world. The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in the caves of Qumran by a Palestinian shepherd boy in 1947, show that the Old Testament Scriptures we have in our Bible today are the same Scriptures which existed 100 years before Christ. Add to that more than 24,000 ancient New Testament manuscripts (in whole or in part, including 5,300 in original Greek, with 230 of those dating before the 6th century) affirm that the New Testament Scriptures have also been faithfully preserved.
Before the time of paper, printing presses and computers, ancient writings were copied by hand on scrolls made from animal skins or papyrus. The original scrolls of the Holy Scriptures were copied by specially trained scribes. These scribes believed that to tamper with the Scripture was to tamper with God Himself! Yet despite their care, minor variants found their way into the copies; a miscopied number or letter; an occasional word or paragraph omitted. God's Word is perfect, but He never promised that the copies would be without copiest errors. Anyone who publishes a book today knows how easily typos can find their way into the text. However, with the Bible, due to the sheer volume of its ancient manuscripts, scholars, by comparing texts, can generally determine the correct rendering.
Most importantly, it needs to be understood that not one foundational truth is affected in the slightest degree by the miniscule variations found between manuscripts. The fact that such minor variants exist between the hand copied texts shows that the Scriptures have not been tampered with. The history of the Bible does not include anyone ever attempting to make "a perfect copy" and then burning the remaining manuscripts (I think you may know what book I am referring to). NO intention of corruption of Bible manuscripts can even be suspected. Think!!! How could a group of men have inserted "corruption" into books of such celebrity, books that had already been translated into so many languages, copied by the hundreds of thousands, and distributed throughout the known world?
In an attempt to find a reason not to believe the Bible, some even use verses from the Bible itself. One such verse is Jeremiah 8:8 which speaks about the "lying pen of the scribes..." "See!" some have told me, "Even the Bible admits that the scribes changed and corrupted it!" Does it? Let's read this phrase in its context. Jeremiah 8:7,8 says: "Even the stork in the sky knows her appointed seasons, and the dove, the swift and the thrush observe the time of their migration. But my people do not know the requirements of the LORD. How can you say, 'We are wise, for we have the law (Torah) of the LORD,' when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?" Notice that the text does not say that the scribes changed the text of the Torah, but that they "handled it falsely"! The context shows that these religious leaders explained God's word falsely, because they were greedy for money and the praise of men. To this day, the world is filled with the "lying pens" of such religious leaders who handle God's Word "falsely". Yet God's Word, like a rock, remains unchanged. No one can stop God's message. Whether or not we accept it is up to us. You can go through life and into eternity looking for ways to attack God's message... or you can lay aside your pride, "and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21)
I could go on for many more pages... Hundreds of archeological discoveries confirm and prove the Bible's reliability as a historical source. The eminent archaeologist Nelson Glueck stated: "It may be clearly stated categorically that no archeological discovery has ever controverted a single biblical reference. Scores of archeological findings have been made which confirm in clear outline or exact detail historical statements in the Bible." By the way, Glueck was not a Bible-believer. His conclusions were based strictly on the archeological data. Such evidence can be brushed aside and ignored, but it cannot be refuted. Similarly, no truly scientific discovery has ever contradicted a single biblical statement. Of course, neither archeology nor science can prove any book to be the inspired Word of God. Spiritual truth cannot be proven by scientific discovery. And if any try to tell you that they know that their holy book is inspired by God because it contains some scientific sounding statements... you may want to remind them that Satan, the author of false religions, also knows a lot about science! He has been around a long time you know. Thankfully, our belief that the Bible is God's inspired Word is based on a higher court of judgment.
Unlike any book ever written, the Bible contains God's personal signature via hundreds of specific prophecies which have been fulfilled-about nations, cities, events, people and the promised Messiah. We will consider some of these a bit later. The point to be understood here is that only God can consistently and repeatedly predict the future with 100% accuracy. The laws of probability demonstrate the impossibility of such prophecies being fulfilled by mere chance. It is with reason that the Old Testament contains the following challenge to all invented gods and religions, "'Present your case,' says the LORD. "Bring forth your strong reasons... declare to us things to come. Show the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that you are gods... Indeed you are nothing, and your work is nothing; He who chooses you is an abomination.'" (Isaiah 41:21-24)
In addition to the element of fulfilled prophecy, God's emphasis on multiple-witnesses-to-establish-truth must not be overlooked. In the Torah, God told Moses, "By the mouth of (at least) two or three witnesses the matter shall be established." (Deuteronomy 19:15) In the Scriptures of the Bible, God has used not just one man to deliver His message, nor just two or three witnesses... God used more than forty prophets and apostles to record His story and message. Prophets like, Moses, David, Solomon, Job... And in the Gospel record (Injil) for example, God used four apostles, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, to record the story and words of the Messiah who came to earth, and then He used four more men to write the remaining books of the New Testament Scriptures in order to affirm what the first four wrote. God has given us a firm foundation for our faith.
Obviously, multiple testimonies alone do not establish a matter as true. God clearly warns us not to believe the word of any self-proclaimed prophet who preaches a message contrary to the message which HE has revealed to His prophets and apostles over the centuries. "Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." (1 John 4:1) In a confused and confusing world, where many have "exchanged the truth of God for the lie" (Romans 1:25), God has made it possible for us to discern His truth from Satan's lies. How has He done this? By revealing His message in a progressive, consistent manner over many generations, and by revealing that message with accompanying signs and wonders and symbols which allow us to come to the unmistakable conclusion: This is God's story and message! "Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard... how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?" (Hebrews 2:1-4)
The bottom line is simply this: God is greater than man, and has protected His Word from corruption so that we might compare anything we hear with what He has revealed in the ancient Scriptures. If God had communicated His message through just one prophet, or if God had permitted men to tamper with His revelation, we would have no way of discerning truth from error. How thankful we should be for the way in which God has revealed His truth! God takes His book seriously, and expects us to do the same. "To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." (Isaiah 8:20)
One more thing. As you read the Bible, keep in mind that many of the Bible's prophecies and treasures of knowledge are tucked away among some of the Scriptures most difficult chapters. This is by design. The prophet Solomon wrote: "It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings is to search out a matter." (Proverbs 25:2) God does not hit people over the head with His truth. You must want it badly enough to seek it out. You must want HIM... which is why He says, "You will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13) God wants you to discover Him and His truth. And you will... if you search for Him "with all your heart."
The ball is in your court.
ALI'S EMAIL #4
Subject: Then here comes the ball -right at your head!
First, on those who accused Christ. I do not accuse Christ of anything. I accuse Paul. I accuse Anathasius, Tertullian,Iraneus, and Constantine. i blame the Coucil of Nicea and the Paulian Church.I blame Luther, Calvin,Augustine, and Aquinas.They are the liars and deceivers, not the Blessed Prophet Isa.May Allah be merciful upon those they have deceived and led astray (like you.)
On the throwing rocks at Christ for claiming to be the Son of God. If he made such a claim, then the Sanhedrian would have been correct and blessed to put him to death as a blasphemer of the worst kind. If it were true then such a man should be beheaded or publically stoned for blasphemy under the Laws of Moses.So such a verdict is well justified.Whenever i see a Jesus movie I always side with the Pharisees, at least in their correct perception of the Oneness of God and the severity of such a sin.So in "THE PASSION": i applauded their conviction and punishment of such a heretic.I found the crying in the theatre rather bizzare and humorous, as I found no "spiritual truth" in watching a convicted blaspheming criminal being tortured and executed.
However,the Prophet Isa never claimed this,was never crucified, never died and never resurrected.He was a blessed Prophet who said that God was one, and he was but a messenger So this whole argument and comparison is moot.
You talk of my claims being unfounded, and the same you've heard before. Thats because youve failed to disprove it.Facts are facts. You mentioned these "hundreds" of mauscripts of the Bible that can show it was not corrupted. Yet, you dont mention any of their dates, nor the fact that many of these manucsripts you point at are selective in the parts you reference. NONE of them outdate the Vaticanus Codex and the Siniatcus Codex.And as Ive shown, they do not have verses that are in later Bibles. So therefore they must come from a date after 400 AD. You also do not mention that most of these manuscripts are incomplete, nor that they have books that are no longer within the Bible. Also, you mention the Dead Sea Scrolls; for one, there are text within them that are not in the Bible, and even if every word was identical, So What? The Dead Sea were written around the 1 BC. which gives over a 1000 years of corruption. It is also well established that the Jews lost their written torah during the exile, and written from "Oral tradition and memory" when they returned.So they were already well corrupted by the time the DSC were made a 1000 years later.Not to mention their heavy influence from pagan cultures which were purportedly written after the time of Solomon.So this proves absolutely nothing.
As far as scribal contradictions, I agree and do not argue them. Theres no need, they are what they are.However, you pass over this with this excuse like it makes it ok and acceptable--WhICH IT IS NOT! It is still corrupted by this scribal error, thus making it tainted by mans hand.So your argument only proves my point. You are just so used to the excuse for the corruption you think its something you can overlook.
Also, you contradict yourself,. First you talk of ancient printing and copying techniques,and say that Gods message is perfect and mans copying is not. Fine, I agree. Then you proudly state that the Bible is not corrupted and God "protects it"--SO which one is it? Or is the "Scribal error" just what God lets "slide"?
Actually I think quite well. And i think of this. How many people could read back then?And , if you changed the text, for as you said, their were few copies floating around as printing was not invented, how would the next generation know, especially with small piecemeal changes? Not to mention the many opposing jewish schools that changed things and accepted them as divine because it matched their beliefs.Religions often evolve over time, and whats sacred to one generation is blasphemy to the ones past.
Nor do you mention the fact that these scriptures were voted upon by councils as to what went in and what did not. Which was "overturned" by the Protestants in the 16th century. The Catholics say their are seven more books than the protestants. So you people cannot agree even among YOURSELVES whats divine scripture and whats not.So whos right, the Pope or Billy Graham? You Blood cultists hack it out over the next century then "enighten" us with your verdict.
Once again, the tired argument. YES. We had Corrupted qurans destroyed in the very beginning, by the very men who had been there and knew the true revelation.They corrected this before it could turn into the problem you people have.The Companions of the Prophet Muhammad who were hafiz (completely memorized the Quran from the time of its revelation), and their were PLENTY LEFT(Ali, Sayd, Bilal,Uthman himself, just to name a few) despite misinformation of your website aboutthose hafiz killed in the Battle with the false prophet. These men approved and authorized it, and destroyed the rest.ZIt hasnt changed since. If James, Peter, John,Thomas and the rest of the original followers of Jesus had sat down, had the gospel written in the true way they had heard and learned it from Prophet Isa,authorized it, and destroyed all the rest floating around, then you would not have these "contradictions", "scribal errors", "interpolations" and "Apocryphas" that make your Book a complete mystery and mess as to its validation today.
I love the propaganda you people try to pull on us. Like we dont know the Quran?!! (Have you memorized the Bible, perfectly word-for-word without a single variation? Well, MILLIONS of Muslims have done this with the quran. So we are pretty familiar with the text.) You people always quote ayas that you think will make us trust the Bible.Thus giving you a foothold for attempted conversion, in which you then announce the Quran is not revealed scripture (But its ok to appeal to its authority to serve your deceitful purposes, huh.) What you always fail to quote are the numerous ayas that say the "texts that came before you" are now corrupted, and those that did it will go to hellfire for it.(Read Surah 5 pal!) and when he speaks of the Injil, the Torah, and the psalms, it means the original revelations, not the present ones that are completely corrupted.THis is not just important to me, but to the salvation of the whole world.
Also, when the Quran speaks of Christians, its not speaking of you. Because you are not a Christian.Christians are those who are unitarians, trinitarians(Surah 5) are not Christians, and are not included in Gods salvation with true Unitarian Christians and Jews. Trinitarians are doomed to hellfire for the highest of all sins, giving companions and equals to God.
Which brings me to your false Prophet Paul. I have no need nor any desire to discuss this evil blasphemer who commited the highest of all sins, and even deceived countless generations to believe it as well. Nor do i need to hear these ridiculous comparisons and weird interpretations. I guarntee you theres not one solitary thing you can say i havent already heard before. It was trinitarian crap then and its trinitarian crap now. Trinitarianism is not monotheism,its polytheim no matter how you try to philosophically/theologically gloss it over. It is a creation of 200 Ad Bishops, and a man of God should not discuss or waste time with false Prophets and pseudo-paganism(Trinity).Any quotes or references from his "scripture" are and will be ignored and unread.
As far as my "Seeking truth": Im not seeking truth, I already found it, and Im defending it. Why would I turn from the true religion of God to a false pagan religion like Paulian Trinitarianism?
Let me try and explain something to you that you Paulians never seem to get:Contrary to your belief ... YOU CAN COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND AND EXPERIENCE CHRISTIANITY AND STILL NOT BELIEVE IT!!
You see, i converted to Islam. Im from a very religious protestant family and my Grandfather was a lettered and accredited Bible Scholar and minister.I probably understand Christianity better than you. i just dont believe it. I find no spiritual truth, feeling,or revelation from my experience with the church.In fact, i found it not to be true and discovered its falsehood. I investigated all religions searching for the truth, and found Islam to be the only one that fits both my firm academic/critical mind and the need of spirit. So i already looked outside the Box, and i didnt find truth in Christ;- I found the only truth their is outside anyones box, Allah and his Messengers.
So if your looking for a convert, then your wasting your time.Im one of those who decreased your numbers, and is doing all in his power to decrease it even further, until your pagan bloodcult falls to ruin. Alhamdullah!Allahu-akkbar!
If you still wanna play Pagan Paulian, then its Your serve....
ANSWERING-ISLAM'S RESPONSE #4
Thanks for taking time to send the proverbial ball back. I'll keep my return lob simple by commenting on three of your statements. (Good answers are available for all you wrote, but you and I both know that we have to be selective or we would be writing a book each time. :-)
1.) You write: "if your looking for a convert, then your wasting your time."
First, let me say that I am not trying to convert you. My desire is only to help folks understand the Bible's true message. Whether or not they believe it... is up to them. Conversion is God's work, not mine.
2.) Besides your additional comments on the impossible claim of biblical corruption, you write: "The Catholics say their are seven more books than the protestants."
I do not agree with what the Roman Catholic Church did in adding the apocryphal books to the Old Testament. They must give account to God for that. But having said that, did you know that if you compare, for example, the Book of Matthew in a Catholic English Bible to the Book of Matthew in a Protestant English Bible, you will find they are the same? If you compare these to the early Greek manuscripts, you will find they are the same. In its nearly 2000 years of existence, the Book of Matthew has remained the same. By this comparison, it is easy to see that no one has corrupted the Book of Matthew. This process can be done with Genesis, Exodus... Psalms... Isaiah... John... Revelation... or any other book of the Bible. There are language groups in the world that have had, for many years, only one book of the Bible in their language. Yet they have read this one book and have understood God's Good News message. In the end, the size of one's Bible is not what is most important. Of course, it is an awesome privilege to be able to study the entire volume of Scripture--which allows one to see the infinite depth and perfect consistency in "all that the prophets have spoken." (Luke 24:25-27) But what really matters is: Have you understood and believed God's MESSAGE? And, by the way, once you have understood HIS Story and Message you will be able to readily recognize those books, messages and messengers which are not of God.
3.) You write: "Contrary to your belief ...YOU CAN COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND AND EXPERIENCE CHRISTIANITY AND STILL NOT BELIEVE IT!! ...I probably understand Christianity better than you. i just dont believe it. I find no spiritual truth, feeling, or revelation from my experience with the church."
You will notice that I have not been writing to you about "Christianity" or "the church." Elements in both so-called Christianity and the church have disappointed me too! Many deceptions have been and continue to be propagated under those two headings. Neither "Christianity" nor "the Church" has the power to make you right with God. Salvation comes from God. What we need to do is get back to the Source Book which records for us God's story and message.
What I would like to do here is cross-examine your statement in which you claim to understand Christianity. By that do you mean that you are confident that you have clearly understood the message of the many prophets and apostles who penned the Scriptures of the Bible? To see for yourself if you have truly understood the Bible's central message, do you mind if I ask you some key questions? I am not asking you to give me your personal opinion or the Islamic viewpoint (you have already done that to some degree), but rather, I am inviting you to state in a clear and a concise manner what the Bible actually says. Have no fear... by answering the following questions, I will not assume that you actually BELIEVE what you have written. :-) I only want to give you a chance to see for yourself whether or not you really UNDERSTAND the main message of the Bible (the message for which true Christians are willing to suffer rejection, persecution and martyrdom). What is that basic message?
Keep your answers short; no need to write more than a few lines for each question. This is a simple exercise to see if you have grasped the elementary, straightforward message of the Bible.
BASED ON THE BIBLE AND ONLY ON THE BIBLE...
1.) Name two or three frequently mentioned attributes of God.
2.) What is sin?
3.) Why does man die?
4.) Why did God require animal sacrifices before the Messiah came?
5.) Why was it necessary that the Messiah die on the cross?
6.) Why is the Messiah's resurrection from the dead so important?
7.) How were people who lived before the time of Messiah declared righteous before God?
8.) How are people who have been born since the time of Messiah declared righteous before God?
I look forward to receiving your biblical answers.
ALI'S EMAIL #5
Subject: Re: Then here comes the ball -right at your head!
First, of course the Book of Matthew is the same. The Bible has not changed that much since after 800 AD, and especailly since the Rennaisance, when literacy and the availability of printed books became more readily available to the masses.After that it became difficult to alter a well known text that had before only been available to about 2% of the population. Well, thats not quite true. Some groups HAVE changed it to fit their beliefs...again. Case in point the Jehovah Witness translation. They do not believe in trinity, so any verse that hints at it, they alter.They also think Jesus is separate from God, so they changed verses to match that.( I could give examples, but I dont have my copy with me.) So this is just a modern example of something you Paulians have been doing for 2000 years; changing scripture to fit your beliefs.But how many scriptures IS important. Anything that is supposed to come from God is of the highest importance to mankind. And if they are included with man-made crap. then it is a travesty.So you even admit that their is a debate among Christian denominations(Catholic and Protestant) as to what Scriptures and Books belong in the Bible and which do not.Even betwen the Shia and Sunni, nothing in the Quran is in the least bit disputed.I dont have time nor interest to persue who might be right and who might be wrong, because your all wrong and misguided anyway.So who cares what corrupted man-made scriptures you haggle over?
On your little Bible questionaire.I do know the answers you want to hear, but Im not a Paulian pagan, and Im not in your Sunday school brainwashing class.I have no interest nor intention to play with some Paulian belief Q&A. So forget that.Besides, i have no interest in discussing internal-faith issues of Paulian trinitarianism from its own point of view. It is blasphemy to even entertain such topics in ones mind.So my answers to your questions would reflect the truth, not your interpretation.
*Sin is the disobedience of the Laws of Allah, that is individual and not inherited from others.
*Man dies because Allah promised all men a mortal death, not as a punishment for the exile from the Garden for eating forbidden fruit.
*The Messiah did not die on the cross as a ultimate sacrifice for mankinds sins, which you believe ended the need for animal sacrifice. Prophet Isa was not crucified.No ancient Prophet ever pronounced such a thing, and any quoted scripture to the contrary is either an incorrect interpretation of the OT, or made up and installed by the Paulian Bloodcult.
*As Prophet Isa did not die, and still lives in heaven, then their is and never was a need for his resurrection.
* Man achieved righteousness from Allah before Prophet Isa the same way they do now.Prayer,asking for forgiveness for sin,avoiding what Allah has forbidden, Charity, following the Laws of Allah, kindness to the poor, women, orphans, fasting, and animal sacrifice on apropriate holy days. Do this and you go to Paradise. Do otherwise and you go to the Hellfire after the Judgement Day.Thats all that any Prophet said, including Isa, DONT MAKE IT ANYMORE THAN THAT!! There has only been this one covenant between Allah and man. There is no new one. Allah is not fickle, nor is he playing some sort of sick sadistic S&M game to achieve mans salvation. Such things are beneath the glory of Allah and blasphemy to even discuss.
One thing I will say is that the first time I read the Bible, i thought the old Testament and New Testament were completely different in theology, and even completely different religions. I saw no direct link beteen them, and thought the traditional sighted links were weak and presumptious in thier attempt.I found the highlighted so-called "prophecies of Christ" to be reaching in their interpretation, and gave me the impression of someone trying to make a puzzle fit by using snipers. My studies with jewish Rabbis confirmed this suspicion, as they can skillfully discredit every single Christian claim of the Torah prophecies having anything to do with Its" fullfillment in Christ". My consequential 20 year study of the Hebrew, Greek, and Latin Bibles have left me with the same conclusion. The Old Testament has nothing to do with The Coming of the Son Of God and its fulfillment through his murder and its ideal of God is completely different from the Paganized Agape God figure of Trinity.All arguments and frenzied passage flipping to try and show me otherwise is just pathetic interpretation made through patchwork out-of-context nonsense of Paulian trying to draw water from a mirage.
Give up this silliness and accept Islam for your salvation before its too late.
ANSWERING-ISLAM'S RESPONSE #5
Thank you for your time. It is clear that you have, for now, made a conscious choice to reject the Bible and its message--which, of course, you are free to do. Since my time is limited, and I prefer to invest it answering the questions of folk who honestly want answers, this is probably my last email to you.
Here are my closing comments.
- Your manuscript history knowledge about the book of Matthew and the entire New Testament does not line up with the evidence. See http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/bibmanu.htm
- You never answered the question as to how any group of people could have possibly inserted "corruption" into books of such great celebrity... books which, from the outset, were distributed throughout the known world and translated into other languages. I am glad that at least you accept the principle that there is a point when it becomes "difficult to alter a well known text..." And if you will do some careful research for yourself, you will find that, from the beginning, the treasured New Testament Scriptures were circulated widely and quickly entered the "well-known-text" category.
- The manuscript evidence is clear: the Bible Scriptures we have today are the same that existed from the first centuries--long before the time of the Qur'an which clearly states, "We sent forth Jesus, the son of Mary, to follow in the footsteps of the prophets, confirming the Torah which was before him, and we gave him the Gospel with its guidance and light, confirmatory of the preceding Torah; a guidance and warning to those who fear God. Therefore let the people of the Gospel judge according to what God has sent down therein. Evildoers are those that do not judge according to God's revelations." (Qur'an 5:46-51) In light of an abundance of such Qur'anic verses, you and all my Muslim friends have a serious problem that only "the-Bible-is-corrupted!" argument can pacify. It is not difficult to understand why virtually all Muslims passionately cling to this argument even though it is plainly refuted by tens of thousands of ancient manuscripts.
- You have done a good job articulating how Islam denies the basic doctrines of the Bible--especially those which relate to how a sinner can be accepted by a perfectly holy God.
- Your idea that what the Apostle Paul taught is somehow different from what the prophets and Jesus the Messiah taught is just plain wrong. As Jesus said, "You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God." (Injil, Matthew 22:29) While I am unspeakably thankful for Paul's thrilling and practical writings, I can also say that if we did not have them, it would not change the Good News message of the Bible. God inspired Paul to expound the central message of the previous Scriptures, and to instruct believers on how they are to live and to please God in their daily lives. Peter, Jesus' disciple, was shown by God that many would reject Paul's writings. Listen to what Peter wrote. "...our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures." (2 Peter 3:15,16)
- Concerning the basic Bible questions I sent you... a careful study of the Scriptures reveal that what the apostle Paul taught lines up perfectly with what the prophets taught so many centuries earlier...
For example, concerning the truth that all the sons of Adam have been born with an inherent sin nature, 1000 years before Paul was born, the PROPHET DAVID wrote: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me." (Zabur, Psalm 51:5) And 700 years before Paul, the PROPHET ISAIAH wrote: "We are all like an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags..."(Isa. 64:6) [Thus, in Romans, Paul writes: "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned..." (Rom. 5:12)]
What about the concept of substitution--an innocent victim dying in the place of a guilty one? 1500 years before the apostle Paul came along, the PROPHET MOSES had written: "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I (the LORD God) have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement (a sin covering) for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.'" (Torah, Lev. 17:11) [In Hebrews we read: "According to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission." (Heb. 9:22)]
And what about Jesus fulfilling the meaning of those sacrifices? 700 years before Paul's (and Jesus') time, the PROPHET ISAIAH spoke of the Messiah suffering and dying in the place of sinners. Read Isaiah chapter 53. Then read Hebrews chapter 10. (I found it interesting that you are willing to accept the expositions of Jewish Rabbis who "can skillfully discredit" Jesus' obvious fulfillment of hundreds of Old Testament symbols, types and prophecies.)
600 years before Paul, the PROPHET JEREMIAH predicted that God would provide mankind with a New Covenant which would fulfill the prophecies and symbolisms of the First Covenant. "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant..." (Jeremiah 31:31) [Read Hebrews 8 and 9); also what Jesus said in Matthew 26:28...]
Concerning the issue of salvation by faith... 2000 years before Paul, God revealed through the PROPHET ABRAHAM that a person can be declared righteous before God by simply believing God and His plan and promises. "He (Abraham) believed in the LORD, and He (God) accounted it to him for righteousness." (Torah, Genesis 15:6) Thus, two millennia later, it should come as no surprise that Paul wrote... "If Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? 'Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.' Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.'" (Romans 4:1-8)
Notice that all Paul does essentially is to quote from the Torah of Moses (Genesis 15) and from the Psalms of David (Psalm 32) and then adds a divinely inspired commentary.
To sum it up my friend... your many arguments are not so much against the apostle Paul as they are against the very prophets which the Qur'an commands you to respect and believe. And since it is God who has spoken through these prophets, you are not merely rejecting these prophets, you have rejected God and His consistent, age-old plan of salvation.
My prayer for you is that you will not slip into eternity in the spiritual condition of the religious leaders of whom Jesus said,
"These people draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. ...They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."
(Injil, Matthew 15)
I pray that you will, sooner rather than later, come to understand and appreciate what Jesus the Messiah said to a couple of confused men who did not understand why it was necessary that the Messiah be crucified and rise again on the third day: "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory? And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself. ...And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures." (Injil, Luke 24)
May He likewise open your understanding, Ali. (Yes, I haven't forgotten that you think the Scriptures are thoroughly corrupted and that, consequently, you probably skipped over the Scriptures I have quoted... :-) But if you ever do get past first base [the biblical corruption issue], I hope you will begin to study the Scriptures for yourself with a desire to meet the One who loves you more than you can imagine.)
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