Examining More of Abdullah Kunde’s Inconsistencies Pt. 2

“Now Daniel 7, the beauty of Daniel 7 and the prophecy here, is that Daniel actually asks in the very same chapter the angel that he is with to explain it to him. So if we read Daniel 7, verse 23 onwards to the end of the chapter 28, the angel explains that this prophecy is referring to a kingdom, not to an individual personality, but to a kingdom. You can read that, that’s in your own book. I’m not making it up, okay.” (*)

“Secondly, I’m glad you brought up the Revelation quote because it says ‘like a son of man coming on the cloud,’ and this is obviously a direct reference to Daniel 7. And who is the son of man coming on the cloud in a vision before Daniel? It’s an angel, okay. Now I think that if you read particularly the three synoptic Gospels and then the Gospel according to John with the understanding that, we sort of have a development from Jesus being this really powerful man to being an angelic figure – if you think angel and not God particularly when you’re coming to the Gospel according to John and Revelation – a lot of these things will make a lot more sense because in Daniel the son of man figure is an angel. And again this is in your own book, I’m not making it up… In terms of the son of man in the Revelation quote, well the son of man coming on the cloud in Daniel is an angel. So is Jesus an angel or is he God? The son of man goes to the ancient of days, the angel goes to God. It’s not even remotely consistent at all if you want to say it’s all God.” (*)

“If we want to consider Daniel 7 and the Son of Man figure, well first of all we have the Ancient of Days described as being an old man with white hair and a long beard. This is God! And then we have the Son of Man come to him riding on a cloud. Two totally separate bodies, two separate individuals. Now the Son of Man is not worshiped [sic] but he’s given a kingdom. And indeed then the angel that is with Daniel explains his whole vision to him; the point of it is that it’s metaphorical, okay. So first of all there is a distinction between God and the Son of Man, the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man; so it can’t match up with Christian theology (sic). And secondly the angel explains the vision indicating that it’s all metaphorical. So it’s not a great use on Samuel’s part, and indeed you can read that yourself, Daniel 7 and onwards from verse 9.” (Islam v. Christianity Debate: Tawheed vs. Trinity)

“As I looked, THRONES were placed and the Ancient of Days took his SEAT; his raiment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like pure wool; his THRONE was fiery flames, its wheels were burning fire. A stream of fire issued and came forth from before him; a thousand thousands served him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him; the court sat in judgment, and the books were opened… In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshiped (yipelachun) him. His DOMINION is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his KINGDOM is one that will never be destroyed.” Daniel 7:9-10, 13-14

“There is none like God, O Jesh'urun, who rides through the heavens to your help, and in his majesty through the skies. The eternal God is your dwelling place, and underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy before you, and said, Destroy.” Deuteronomy 33:26-27

“Sing to God, sing praises to his name; lift up a song to him who rides upon the clouds; his name is the LORD, exult before him! … Sing to God, O kingdoms of the earth; sing praises to the Lord, [Selah] to him who rides in the heavens, the ancient heavens; lo, he sends forth his voice, his mighty voice. Ascribe power to God, whose majesty is over Israel, and his power is in the skies.” Psalm 68:4, 32-34

“who has laid the beams of your chambers on the waters, who makes the clouds your chariot, who rides on the wings of the wind,” Psalm 104:3

“An oracle concerning Egypt. Behold, the LORD is riding on a swift cloud and comes to Egypt; and the idols of Egypt will tremble at his presence, and the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.” Isaiah 19:1

“The LORD is slow to anger and of great might, and the LORD will by no means clear the guilty. His way is in whirlwind and storm, and the clouds are the dust of his feet.” Nahum 1:3 – cf. Exodus 13:21-22; 14:19-20, 24; 33:7-11; 40:34-38; Numbers 10:34

Do they then wait for anything other than that Allah should come to them in the shadows of the clouds and the angels? (Then) the case would be already judged. And to Allah return all matters (for decision). S. 2:210 Hilali-Khan

“Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be handed over to the saints, the people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship (yipelachun) and obey him.” Daniel 7:27

“Jesus said to him, ‘Away from me, Satan! For it is written: “Worship the Lord your God, and SERVE him ONLY (kai auto MONO LATREUSEIS).”’” Matthew 4:10; cf. Luke 4:8

“IV. Traditional Interpretations. The earliest interpretations and adaptations of the ‘one like a human being,’ Jewish and Christian alike, assume that the phrase refers to an individual and IS NOT a symbol for a collective entity.²⁶³ In the Similitudes of Enoch (1En 46:1), the white-headed ‘head of days’ is accompanied by one ‘whose face had the appearance of a man, and his face [was] full of grace, like one of the holy angels.’ He is explicitly called ‘messiah,’ or anointed one, in 48:10; 52:4, and ‘his name was named’ before creation (48:3). In 4 Ezra 13 the man who rises from the sea and flies with the clouds of heaven is also a messianic figure, but like ‘that Son of Man’ in the Similitudes, he is a preexistent, supernatural figure (13:26; ‘This is he whom the Most High has been keeping for many ages’). The messianic interpretation prevails in rabbinic literature²⁶⁴ and remains the majority of opinion among the medieval Jewish commentators. The tradition is not entirely uniform. In some circles the two figures in Dan 7:9-14 were taken as two manifestations of God, apparently to the heretical view that they represented two powers in heaven. The collective interpretation is not clearly attested in Jewish circles until the Middle Ages… In summary, the traditional interpretations of the ‘one like a human being’ in the first millennium overwhelmingly favor the understanding of this figure as an individual, not as a collective symbol. The most usual identification was the messiah, but in the earliest adaptations of the vision (the Similitudes, 4 Ezra, the Gospels) the figure in question had a distinctly supernatural character.” (Hermeneia – A Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible, A Commentary on the Book of Daniel, by John J. Collins with an essay, “The Influence of Daniel on the New Testament,” by Adela Yarbro Collins, edited by Frank Moore Cross [Fortress Press, Minneapolis 1993], pp. 306-308)

263… Montgomery (320), who argues for the collective interpretation, nonetheless writes, “It must be admitted that the earliest interpretation of ‘the Son of Man’ is Messianic.” See also Vermes, Jesus the Jew, 170-172; and the list of passages in H. L. Strack and P. Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud und Midrasch (Munich: Beck, 1922) 1.486.

264. Undisputed examples include b. Sanh. 98a; Num. Rab. 13:14; ‘Aggadat Ber’esit 14:3; 23:1 (Casey, Son of Man, 80). It is probably implied in Akiba’s explanation of the plural “thrones” as one for God and one for David, which we noted at v. 9, above (so, e.g., Montgomery, 321). Casey (Son of Man, 87) points out that it is not a necessary inference in the case of Akiba, but his arguments do not lessen its probability… (Pp. 306-307; underline emphasis ours)

“At that time men will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.” Mark 13:26-27

“Again the high priest asked him, ‘Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?’ ‘I am,’ said Jesus. ‘And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.’” Mark 14:61b-62

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by MY Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’ Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46

“Jesus gave them this answer: ‘Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do ONLY WHAT HE SEES HIS FATHER DOING, because WHATEVER the Father does THE SON ALSO DOES. For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, and he will show him even greater works than these, so that you will be amazed. For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, EVEN SO THE SON GIVES LIFE TO WHOM HE IS PLEASED TO GIVE IT. Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, that all may honor the Son JUST AS they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him. Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear THE VOICE OF THE SON OF GOD and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to judge BECAUSE HE IS THE SON OF MAN. Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear HIS [THE SON’S] VOICE and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.’” John 5:19-29

“Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and EVERY TONGUE acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.” Philippians 2:9-11

“And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people. And they sang a new song, saying: ‘You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth.’ Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they were saying: ‘Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!’ Then I heard EVERY CREATURE in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying: ‘To him who sits on the throne AND TO THE LAMB be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!’ The four living creatures said, “Amen,” and the elders fell down and worshiped.” Revelation 5:8-14